Just do it!

E. H. Shoemate wrote:
>
> In any case, what should/could I say to them? Is there any hope of changing
> their minds? What approaches have worked in the past to sell officials on this idea?

uhh.... well..... I don't usually say anything. I am responsible enough
to place my letterboxes in places that are not going to cause damage to
the environment. The impact of the 4 people who visited Rock Creek #4
was quite a bit less than the teens who brought a 6 pack of their
favorite beverage and proceeded to carve up the only picnic table in the
area.

With all things gov't regulated, remember this mantra... "it is easier
to repent than to ask permission..."

--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

Speaking from knowing a bit about insurance, I work at
Humana in the subrogation department. That means that
I have to check into other insurances before I can pay
any bills. Normally property owned by the
city/state/etc, does not have what is called medical
payments coverage. This is coverage that pays out
regardless of liability. The state should not worry
about injuries or things like that for other people
could not go after them for anything really.
You could try to tell them that they would not have to
worry about liability. There would be a few people to
watch over the boxes and make sure nothing bad
happens. I have no idea. Good Luck though. die xo

--- "E. H. Shoemate" wrote:
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else has had any
trouble with getting permission from state or national
parks to let you set up a course? I've been told that
there is apparently a problem with insurance; they
don't want private people setting things up like that.
In any case, what should/could I say to them? Is
there any hope of changing their minds? What
approaches have worked in the past to sell officials
on
this idea?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I agree with Thom completely! If we waited around for permission from state
parks officials, we'd never, ever get this hobby off the ground. Instead, a
committee would be formed to debate the pros and cons, and liability issues
would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, and in the end the answer would
probably be--no boxes allowed in state parks.

Thom wrote:
>With all things gov't regulated, remember this mantra... "it is easier
>to repent than to ask permission..."

Ayep! That's the American way!!!!!

Bonnie (why does everybody keep calling me a Libertarian????) Sennott
(formerly McLaughlin, and no, not marriage--divorce)

______________________________________________________

I'd have to say that I share the same sentiment. I think this hobby is so
very respectful of the land and it's environs...and what a wonderful way to
get out and exercise your mind and body at once. I would be hesitant to ask
"permission" per se.
Cara

-----Original Message-----
From: Bonita McLaughlin [mailto:bonitasusan@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 10:24 AM
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] Re: state/national parks


I agree with Thom completely! If we waited around for permission from state

parks officials, we'd never, ever get this hobby off the ground. Instead, a

committee would be formed to debate the pros and cons, and liability issues
would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, and in the end the answer would
probably be--no boxes allowed in state parks.

Thom wrote:
>With all things gov't regulated, remember this mantra... "it is easier
>to repent than to ask permission..."

Ayep! That's the American way!!!!!

Bonnie (why does everybody keep calling me a Libertarian????) Sennott
(formerly McLaughlin, and no, not marriage--divorce)

______________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Bonita McLaughlin wrote:
>
> I agree with Thom completely! If we waited around for permission from state
> parks officials, we'd never, ever get this hobby off the ground. Instead, a
> committee would be formed to debate the pros and cons, and liability issues
> would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, and in the end the answer would
> probably be--no boxes allowed in state parks.
>

Not intended as a slight agianst the Forest Service, or any other
entity.. but as an indicator of how certain bureaucratic persons can
impinge on others' fun... let me share my recent experience with y'all.

For the past 3 years I have helped organize an event that caters to a
certain type of vehicle (okay... it's a Ford Bronco.. I admit it). This
is a family event and it has been a LOT of fun to participate in the
planning. Every year we have put on the event, we have asked about
permits from the local entity that controls the area we use. Every year
they have denied us even the option of applying for a permit.
Fortunately, the area we use is so large and our numbers have been so
small that we have gone unnoticed. This year we attracted over 200
trucks and about 500 participants in the event. Needless to say.. they
noticed. I had a phone call from the Ranger station threatening legal
action before I had even left home (now don't you wish you had attended
Bonnie?)!! After the second phone call, which by this time had moved to
higher offices in the eschelon, we came to an understanding... no, we
didn't have a permit, but HAD attmepted to get one and had received
outright MISinformation from the person in charge. They ended up
granting us permission to continue our event (with strong hints that we
might be prosecuted if things turned sour).

After the event, the Chamber of Commerce for the area's small businesses
called to thank us... we had extended their busy season one more
weekend, the Search and Rescue were pleased to report that their calls
to the area were in no way connected to our group, and we found out that
the local Ranger went home and brought his family back to participate in
our activities.

We have already begun to apply for a permit for next year. Now that
they know us, they don't fear us.

Place your boxes.... if the local gendarms happen to stumble across
one, I'm sure you will see similar results.
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things

Bonnie:

Thanks for the confidence! I think I will just take my happy self up onto the
mountain and plant some boxes. I can check periodically to make sure they
haven't been removed by the authorities, and if they have, I can replace them.
:) Stamps aren't exactly free, but they aren't really expensive, either.

We'll form a committee of the people who pay the taxes for the upkeep on the
durned thing, and decide as a group that I should place some boxes!

Even benighted Alabamians deserve to letterbox. :) I suddenly feel like an
anarchist... :P

Oh, and Bonnie, I'm Green Party; can I still play reindeer games? :) My
sister IS a card-carrying Libertarian... We fight a lot. :)

Thanks all,

Erin
dindrane@needcoffee.com


Bonita McLaughlin wrote:

> I agree with Thom completely! If we waited around for permission from state
> parks officials, we'd never, ever get this hobby off the ground. Instead, a
> committee would be formed to debate the pros and cons, and liability issues
> would be gone over with a fine tooth comb, and in the end the answer would
> probably be--no boxes allowed in state parks.
>
> Thom wrote:
> >With all things gov't regulated, remember this mantra... "it is easier
> >to repent than to ask permission..."
>
> Ayep! That's the American way!!!!!
>
> Bonnie (why does everybody keep calling me a Libertarian????) Sennott
> (formerly McLaughlin, and no, not marriage--divorce)

In a message dated 9/28/99 12:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tcgrafx@imagina.com writes:

<< With all things gov't regulated, remember this mantra... "it is easier
to repent than to ask permission..." >>
I agree big time on this!!!!!! hehehe
Becky

I agree with Thom and Bonnie - I believe in these simple maxims:

1) Place a box in an area traditionally frequented by hikers,
swimmers,picnicers, etc, where a long history of hanging out or passing
through exists - whether state or federal park, or private ownership.

2) Place the box where it cannot (or highly unlikely) be found
accidentally by a non-letterboxer. Of course, hider and seeker must keep
in mind others in the area that might see your actions and get curious.

3) Hide the box and write your clue in such a manner that no destruction
can occur as a result of the hunt.

4) Finally, always refer to the liability statement on the LBNA web page
and clues.


With regard to this last comment - Di or anyone else with relavent
experience: does this liability statement do what we intend. It was
written by non-lawyers, so I'd like to hear any comments that you might
have.

Erik

Hi, gang!!
For what it's worth, I though I'd throw my comments into the discussion of
letterboxes in state/national parks. I haven't actually placed a box in a
National Park, but a number of mine are in State Parks and National Forests.
I agree with the sentiment that it's best just to do it, and not ask for
permission.

The authorities are not taking any risk by having letterboxes on the land
they oversee. However, if they give their absolute APPROVAL to our actions,
and then we go out and place boxes in dangerous places, I can see where they
could be perceived as being somewhat responsible. As long as they have not
been consulted, they could not possibly be liable for any irresponsible acts.
Of course, since all true letterboxers are responsible,
environmentally-conscious individuals, so this is not really an issue...
RIGHT??? I do recommend including a waiver in your clues, however. Anyone
who gets clues from our website, for example, will have been exposed to the
LbNA Waiver of Responsibility, so what they do after that is their own
business, not yours or mine.

At the risk of stirring up controversy, let me say that I'm not entirely
comfortable with the idea of placing boxes that do not contain any contact
information for the person who placed it. Being an anonymous letterboxer
might be best for YOU, but it is not necessarily good for the hobby, as a
whole.

If a box is discovered with contact information, I feel the authorities will
be more accepting of it. At worst, they might contact the person who placed
it and ask them to remove it. If a box is discovered that has no contact
information in it, though, I think they are much more likely to regard it as
littering. They won't have anyone to pin the charge on, but it will reflect
badly on the hobby, in general. Then, we can expect to find new laws being
written that specifically forbid letterboxing in such areas.

As it is, federal and state regulations itemize many actions that are
forbidden. These regulations are published in leaflets that you can pick up
at most ranger stations and are often posted on signs. I have yet to see a
regulation that specifically lists letterboxing as a no-no. Some parks
specifically forbid digging, so 'plugging' boxes under a chunk of sod might
be out of the question. But I think it is a far cry to declare that a
well-hidden letterbox that contains contact information in case of problems
would qualify as littering. In my opinion, letterboxing is a legal activity
in most parks, though I do not expect the authorities to make any official
announcements to that affect any time soon. As soon as they do something
like that, they will be opening the door to any irresponsible jerk that comes
along. (No sir, mister Ranger, sir... that's not an abandoned six-pack...
it's just six empty letterboxes that aren't hidden very well.)

Sincerely,
Der Mad Stamper